TiVo shows Series3 HDTV Cable Card unit at CES

Posted on Thursday, January 5, 2006 by MegaZone

ATTN: The original image links are getting swamped – so if you have trouble, there are a number of full and partial mirrors listed here. And I’m open to anyone else mirroring.
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Sorry for the delay, I got a later start today than I’d hoped, my bad. I went straight to TiVo’s booth and I’ve been here for a while now, looking around and taking photos. I got a personal tour from TiVoPony of all the new stuff, most of which I can share. :-) Through the marvel of unsecured WiFi I’m coming to you from their booth. The biggest thing they have on display is the Series3 box. The Series3 is the CableCARD HDTV unit, which is due out in mid-to-late 2006. And let me tell you, it is a *SHARP* looking box! Very sleek design, very nice. I have photos, I’ll get them up ASAP, but I didn’t want to wait to post.

The unit has two CableCARD slots on the back and it will support Multi-Stream or Single-Stream cards. If you have multi-stream then you only need one card, but as long as only single stream cards are available you can use two of them. Yes, the unit is dual-tuner – actually, like the HD DirecTiVo it can use any two of the tuners it has, and it has six. 2 cable tuners, 2 ATSC tuners, and 2 NTSC tuners. Yes, it supports digital and analog cable, digital ATSC OTA, and analog NTSC OTA.

The only inputs the unit has are a coax cable in and a coax antenna in. There are no RCA or S-Video inputs on this unit. For output it has HDMI, Component Video, S-Video, and Composite Video. It has optical digital audio out, as well as RCA stereo out. Like the Series2 units it has 2 USB ports, and it also has a 10/100baseT Ethernet jack built-in. The unit also still has the modem, which seems increasingly archaic. :-) Oh, yeah, I almost forgot – it also has an external SATA port. ;-)

The unit has front panel controls clustered on the right, and a nice display in the middle with a very cool feature – it displays the title of the show(s) tuned at the time, so you always know what it is recording at a glance. There is also an output indicator that indicates if the unit is outputting in 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i – and it can be set to any of those. It can also be set to pass-through, so it will send the shows to the TV in whatever format they were received.

The remote ls also sleeker – a slick update of the Series2 peanut with minor changes for HDTV (such as an aspect button). But the big change is that the remote is backlit! It is also weighted and has a ridged pattern on the back towards the base, so there is VERY distinct tactile feedback as to having the remote the right way around in your hand. So those who dislike the peanut because of the ambiguity should be happy.

The box unit still encodes analog content as MPEG2, like the current units, but it supports playback of advanced codecs such as MPEG4 AVC/H.264. This will open up the possibilities of broadband content using more efficient codecs, including HD downloads.

The photos are currently uploading to http://www.gizmolovers.com/Photos/CES2006/ – I’ll fix the permissions as soon as they’re all up so you can see them. Warning, they’re HUGE since they’re 5 mega pixels, I don’t have time to make thumbnails at the moment. I’ll do that later – I noticed some of them are a bit blurry, I’ll take some more and upload those as well.

Oh, and remember that SATA port? TiVo will also be selling an external SATA drive for easy storage expansion, and they have that on display here too.

I have more, I’ll post it in a moment. :-)

EDIT: To clarify, it supports analog cable, even any digital cable channels sent in the clear, without CableCARD. You only need CableCARD for any protected digital channels, to handle the descryption. And since all digital cable systems in the US *must* support CableCARD – it is an FCC mandate – then it should work with all cable systems, analog or digital.

I also got a bit more info, the chipset used in the Series2 supports VC-1 (aka WMV9) and MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, along with MPEG-2, so it has all the same codecs as HD-DVD or Blu-ray. When I asked if it was using a Broadcomm chip I was told that would be a good guess.

There is also another URL for the photos: http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/Photos/CES2006/ – and if anyone else wants to mirror them, please feel free – just give me some credit. If you want to repost them in your own blog, site, etc – please COPY them to your server, don’t kill mine. :-)

As for price – nothing has been announced yet, that’s still To Be Determined.

I have more photos which I’ll be uploading shortly.

EDIT 2: Oh, one other tech detail I forgot. The S3 is still using IDE drives internally, only the external drive is SATA. Also, the external drive is not removable in the conventional sense. Once it is connected, the OS makes it part of the file system and shows may be recorded using both the internal and external drive – as in the SAME show may have its bits scattered on both. If you disconnect the external drive the unit will cope with it, but any shows recorded with any data on the external drive will vanish. So it isn’t something you connect, record to, then take to another unit to watch the shows.

As for CPU, RAM, etc. I don’t have that info yet, but I’ll ask.

Anything else? :-)

EDIT 3: See this entry for more info on the photos – more uploads and mirrors. Also, to permalink to this post, use this as the best direct link.

EDIT 4: Greetings Slashdotters. :-)

EDIT 5: To clarify, the Series3 WILL NOT support CableCARD 2.0. It is strictly a unidirectional device. It will support CableCARD 1.0 and MultiStream, but NOT 2.0/bidirectional. The earlier content that suggested it would was the result of a miscommunication.
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ATTN: The original image links are getting swamped – so if you have trouble, there are a number of full and partial mirrors listed here. And I’m open to anyone else mirroring.

About MegaZone

MegaZone is the Editor of Gizmo Lovers and the chief contributor. He's been online since 1989 and active in several generations of 'social media' - mailing lists, USENet groups, web forums, and since 2003, blogging.    MegaZone has a presence on several social platforms: Google+ / Facebook / Twitter / LinkedIn / LiveJournal / Web.    You can also follow Gizmo Lovers on other sites: Blog / Google+ / Facebook / Twitter.
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  • megazone

    The claim is ‘up to 300 hours’, which is certainly SD content and would probably mean a 250GB drive, since that’s what the Humax T2500 has and it has the same SD capacity. But that isn’t finalized yet, and there could be more than one version – just like with the Series2 – with different native capacities.

  • megazone

    Heh, someone else just asked that. :-)

    Right now ‘up to 300 hours’ – which is SD of course, and implies a 250GB drive. But that isn’t set in stone.

  • anonymous

    I have been holding off buying a second TiVo until the HD capable version, this is great news! My big question – is it backwards compatible with Series 2? Will I be able to transfer videos from my Series 2 box to the Series 3 and vice versa?

  • megazone

    This is the third person in a row to ask this I think. :-)

    TiVo’s intention is for the Series3 to do MRV with the Series2 – but not with HD content.

  • anonymous

    I copied the pics and put them on my server also to help you with bandwidth.
    They are located here
    http://spidertrace.com/Gallery/Tivo3

  • anonymous

    Next time you’re with the TiVo guys, ask them if there will be a trade-in program for Series 2 DVRs. The way I see it I have to buy 2 of the HD ones so any way I can save money is a good thing!

  • anonymous

    No Satellite support? Are they crazy? Dish and Direct are getting ready to roll out the capability to support hundreds of channels in HD, (both the your local affiliates and existing cable channels)- while most digital cable systems appear to be maxed out with their bandwidth at 8-12 channels of HD. So why in the world would I want to stay with cable? (and yes I am aware that most “cable” channels are not in HD – but a big reason for that is because they know that most of them are niche channels and would not be given precious HD bandwidth on cable systems – thact will continue to be reserved for the HBO’s, Showtimes, ESPN’s, Discovery, and maybe a network feed or two, and so these channels have no financial reason to produce HD content that wouldn’t be broadcast.) I was waiting for the standalone HDTivo to ditch my overpriced Comcast, buy a HDTV and go to Dish (which just announced a huge increase in HD channels right across the hall there at CES.) The failure to have a HD input on the series 3 is a monster/huge/potentially fatal design flaw. Why would I want to use the Dish DVR? It sucks.

  • megazone

    Thanks!

  • megazone

    I imagine it is too early for marketing plans to have been set, but I’ll ask.

  • megazone

    Cable networks are nowhere near ‘maxed’ out, and cable MSOs are aggressively adding HD channels. Also, as they convert more analog channels to digital, that frees up bandwidth for more expansion. And there is also the possibility of introducing MPEG-4, as the satellites are, to reduce bandwidth per channel.

    And there was NEVER the chance of HD input from an external tuner. That’s a given. Encoding HD on the fly is cost prohibitive, it requires very powerful, very expensive hardware – WELL outside the consumer product range, even the high end. To record HD you need access to the raw digital signal that is already compressed – and you can’t get that from an external tuner. The satellite vendors aren’t going to help others by exposing the data, especially due to DRM concerns.

    If you want a satellite HDTV DVR you are going to be stuck with the vendor’s own offering, and that’s that – unless/until the FCC decides to mandate something like CableCARD for DBS, but they’ve shown no inclination to do so.

  • anonymous

    The picts show missing screws on the back. Looks like the engineers were up late putting in finishing touches. Standard for CES.

  • anonymous

    I don’t understand how a hard wire could run out of bandwidth before an over-the-air broadcast. DirecTV is allocated a narrow slice of the spectrum, while the cable companies own the entire spectrum on their wires.

  • megazone

    Yeah, I was tempted to see if they’d let me open it… Maybe I will ask today…

  • megazone

    Cable is still regulated to specific frequency ranges, all systems are. But they still have plenty of bandwidth available.

  • anonymous

    Current DirecTV HDTivos will not output component if an HDMI cable is connected. Any news if the new units will output both (as long as copyright is not violated) at the same time?

    Also nice would be composite/s-video output at the same time as HD output for sharing programming with non-HD displays. Any news on that front?

  • megazone

    Not yet – but I’d already thought of that this evening and made a note on my Treo to ask. :-)

  • anonymous

    I’ve never heard of that before. They own the wire. Maybe there are some interference requirements (e.g., can’t leak interference) But, other than that, they aren’t sharing the bandwidth like broadcast does. I guess they voluntarily share with themselves (e.g., telephone over cable, high-speed internet, etc…)

    Regardless, they have orders of magnitude more bandwidth available than directv does.

  • anonymous

    If you would change the URL to your images to append “.nyud.net:8090″ to the hostname, it would coralize your links. Coral is a Content Distribution Network that is very handy for sites that get posted to slashdot.

    See http://www.coralcdn.org/

  • megazone

    Just about everything leaks RF, so there are regulations on what frequencies can be used. Also, there are specifications for things like DOCSIS, etc, which specify those ranges and they have to work on the same cable. And they all have to obey the standards for CableCARD, etc, by FCC mandate. They own the infrastructure, but it is regulated. :-)

    But yeah, they have more range to play with – and it is easier to expand that lofting birds.

  • megazone

    One of the first mirror links posted was for Coral. :-)

  • anonymous

    Will this be sold to the consumer or the cable companies or both?

    Cablevision and Comcast both had press releases last year about working with Tivo on next gen PVRs. If CableCARD works does it make any sense for the cable companies to spin their own variations? So what were those press releases about?

    I don’t want a product designed to the cable company’s requirements. I want the max feature set acheivable with CableCARD.

  • anonymous

    Except for the “super premium” idea, there would not be any other STB, as the S3 (by virtue of CableCard) IS the STB, so no external channel-changing would be necessary. Also, I doubt the MSOs would want to have multiple STBs for any particular service (given the expense), so even the “super premium” thing would be very unlikely.

  • megazone

    The Series3 is a consumer product. The Comcast deal involves porting the TiVo software to the Motorola 6412.

  • anonymous
  • anonymous

    The two biggest complaints in the current product is the slow responsivness in drawing the screen (Overall responsiveness) & the lack of editability of the GUI. (Need more configuration options)

    Also, does it have pass through CallerID like ReplayTV has/had?

  • anonymous

    If the unit is turn off, will it kicks in and tape the show at the right time?

    I have series 1 right now, waiting on HD Tivo. Not sure series 2 can do that. The PVR from Time Warner are for my HD shows, and that PVR will kicks in and tape the show even the unit is not turn on.

    It is nice to have that feature, because we get a lot thunderstorms in the summer here, and power do flicker on and off, or goes out for a minute here or there.

  • megazone

    TiVos are always on, there is no off unless you unplug it. They have a Standby or Sleep mode, but that just disables output, etc

    The TiVo always records when it needs to.

  • anonymous

    Currently shipping Series 2 boxes (7.1.x+) can be activated w/o the phone line. My 540 Series 2 Tivo has never touch a phone jack.

  • anonymous

    From my experience with CATV they have very few restrictions as to bandwidth imposed by regulation. They can use nearly the entire spectrum. FAA imposed some holes but they don’t ammount to much.

    An issue with cable bandwidth is the cabling they use. As far as i know they still have a less than one gigahertz limitation with a single 3/4″ hardline. That’s enough for under 160 channels assuming 6Mhz per channel. I suspect that most cable plants (i.e. cities) can’t use anywhere near 1Ghz of bandwidth due to old amps and such. I’d go with about 500Mhz of bandwidth as a guess.
    The satellite providers, on the other hand, have the ability to reuse the same spectrum from each satellite. I’m not really that familiar with the technology but I would guess that each LNA can use the same spectrum over again from two different satellites. Further, the polorization can be used to isolate and re-use the same spectrum. Not sure about this.

    WARC92 looks like it left the satellite companies with 500Mhz of spectrum per bird per polorization (i.e. 2x 500Mhz per bird) to play with.

  • anonymous

    The only reason to buy this unit would be for HD, and you can’t do that with an external box (re-compressing HD on the fly isn’t feasible in consumer electronics).

    The HD DirecTivo (being discontinued and soon to be obsolete) can do HD over the air, and from the satellite. This will be able to do over the air and cable. There is no perfect solution to record from any source in HD.

  • anonymous

    So, is there a technical reason that CableCard doesn’t work with PPV and VoD? It was mentioned earlier that CC 2.0 may work and something about software. If CC 2.0 supports VoD/PPV I’d be on this in a flash. I want one anyway but my wife likes her VoD.

    This box looks awesome.

  • tboucher

    I went to the Time Warner DVRs because I was tired of owning two HD TVs and not getting HD content/5.1 through my home theater.

    I tried to turn off the TiVo, but instead they gave both of my TiVo’s a six month service credit. I figured what the heck and left it on, but I’ve not had them call in for a month now.

    I really wish they’d get on the ball with this. The longer I have a non-TiVo the more I’m going to be willing to ‘live with it’. I miss being able to pick up the TV and find some recommendation I can watch because nothing else is on, I miss being able to have channels flat out not displayed (Shop @ home, the religious nutjobs, fox news) vs having to skip through them if I just want to channel surf.

    They need to hurry. I’ve had TiVo since 2000 and I’m getting ready to not have it anymore.

  • irc_goliath

    This is wonderful news, thanks for the extensive report :)

  • anonymous

    Are the USB ports 2.0 now? I’d be ok with a WiFi adapter if it was…

  • anonymous

    just yell – hey look that booth has topless show models and then take some quick pics inside ;) What I wonder is what kind of CPU and RAM is in there

  • anonymous

    What we NEED is the same law that required the cable company to get their damn acts together and offer a common interface card standard (CableCard) TO BE FORCED DOWN DirectTV’s throat. I SHOULD have the freedom to buy equipment from ANY provider I choose based upon features and NOT be forced to thru lock in to DTV’s inferior products.

    I can tell you this I will CERTAINLY switch to Cable when this box is available. In addition I would suggest to anyone else interested in the open innovation of products to do the same. DTV has lost a very high spender (NFL football pack, HD Fan package add on, Monthly HD package (HD showtime/HBO/ESPN), and their complete (ultimate?) package (all movie channels).

  • megazone

    Thanks again.

  • megazone

    The reason is that the CC1.0 spec simply doesn’t support upstream communication, the spec is unidirectional.

    CC2.0 is supposed to be bidirectional, but the two camps – cable operators and consumer electronics vendors – are fighting over the specification so it has been repeatedly delayed. Cable vendors want a very limited feature set, CE vendors want everything standardized for broad freedom in making new products. It has been a messy fight – CC2.0 was expected last year, and it looks like we may be lucky to see it this year at times.

  • megazone

    All Series2 units, except the early models starting with 110/130/140, have USB2.0 hardware. And since 7.x software was released, they all have USB2.0 software as well. So all current systems have USB2.0.

    For WiFi I strongly recommend TiVo’s own branded adapter. It was custom designed to work with TiVo and offloads work from the box, allowing it to outperform any other WiFi adapter supported on the box.

  • anonymous

    You must have the correct hardware to act as a device. USB-on-the-go is the hardware that allows a device to act as either a host or a device.

  • anonymous

    I to mande it by the TiVo booth and had a lengthly talk with their marketing people. I asked bluntly, why not brand your own DirectTV HD box, and the
    response was very disapointing…

    Basically it’s this way – In order to make a DTV box, it must be “approved”
    by DTV to be supported and DTV has no interest in supporting those “Mac-like TiVo people as they are a dwindling share to the DVR space, they
    have little clout” said a DirecTV person at the show.

    To DirectTV, TiVo is dead. Although they will continue to support the
    programming until all the boxes eventually die and are replaced by
    NDS boxes. People returning their DirecTiVo should be cautioned that
    they may recieve back an NDS box if they send it in for repair!

    Why the HD TiVo lacks an HDMI input port fails me, let alone an
    analog component in, there is no technical reasoning for it dispite
    what the bonehead marketing guy told me. Fact is they intend with this
    box to leave the DirecTivo crowd and DTV hung out to dry. The part is
    over and both sides hate each other, you could hear it clearly in their
    tone of voice.

    Stuck in the middle are about 2.5 million DirecTiVo subscribers who
    are now stuck with one of three bad options, Go cable and series2/3, stay with DTV and NDS, drop both altogether and find a new provider.

    I have to say personally I am pissed at the way both companies have
    handled this. They’ve repaid dedicated early adopters of direcTivo by
    ignoring our needs and forcing crap upon us. Say all you want about
    the new products and services, but in the end the customer was left
    sitting in the dog house as thanks for years of dedication.

    Unacceptable. Shame on you DTV and TiVo. Shame on you both!

  • stile99

    Homina homina homina!

    Better than a Handy Housewife Helper!

  • anonymous

    Don’t forget that a cable system isn’t just one wire spewing away whatever anyone wants to an essentially infinite number of subscribers without any loss. In fact, it isn’t even mostly copper – the feeds above the head-ends are actually fiber nowadays in all of the more densely-populated areas (i.e., the top few hundred metro areas where about 75% of the population lives). Of course, everything below the head-ends is copper, and a pretty ugly mess, at that, electrically. Until a couple of years ago, even the cable systems in glorious SillyCon Valley (where something like 60,000 millionaires live, so the up-sell for premium services here must be a cable exec’s wet dream) were based on ancient 30+ year old analog dual-wire Comcast/AT&T/TCI/local-yokel infrastructure (each wire was limited to about 30 analog channels), and there aren’t many markets outside of Manhattan and Hollyweird where cable companies can get a better return on their investment.

    So, except for a few experimental lash-ups in places like Boise, Idaho, the wiring everywhere else is something mostly less spectacular, down to something resembling tin cans and strings in the most rural areas – actually, that would be an improvement (my brother has done a lot of cable installations and servicing, and you wouldn’t believe how bad it really is in the vast majority of places). Now, toss in all of the signal amplifiers, conditioners, splitters, filters, traps, etc., and you can start to appreciate how limited the bandwidth to any given set-top box really is. Oh, yeah, RF interference cuts both ways, so you also need to consider the ambient noise present on all those phone and power lines that just happen to run parallel to virtually all of that cable system plant and, especially at the higher frequencies, even the smallest gaps in shielding, connector corrosion, and other Very Bad Things in RF-Land. The bottom line is that, until fiber runs all the way to the majority of set-top boxes, there will never be enough bandwidth for a large number of HD feeds.

    Contrary to popular belief, it’s a _lot_ easier and more cost-effective to add/replace satellites with upgraded capabilities every few years than it is to upgrade the entire nationwide cable plant to even the best copper cabling, much less fiber (the investment in analog cable infrastructure _before_ digital cable was in the vicinity of 100 billion dollars, while building, launching, and operating a satellite is in the range of a couple of hundred million dollars). A cable plant has to recoup its investment over a period of decades in order to keep the monthly cost down to its not-so-dull roar. Yes, satellite set-top boxes need to be upgraded to the tune of a few billions of dollars nationwide at some point in order to keep up with satellite advances, but we’re still talking about a few percent of the cost of doing the same with cable (where the cable, head-ends, and set-top boxes all need to be upgraded in order for any functional improvement to make it to the consumer). Just for the record, I have both cable and satellite because our employers provide them in our homes as part of broadband Internet access packages so we can work from home during flex hours.

    All the Best,
    Joe Blow

  • anonymous

    We need more updates? Will this tivo ever support bidirectional cable cards? Any more hints on when it will be available?

  • megazone

    They don’t have an HDMI input port because it isn’t a compressed signal, it is digital but it would need to be compressed in real-time for recording, and that would be cost prohibitive for a consumer product. Note that there are no DVRs with uncompressed HD input, TiVo or not. It is the same problem as recording from component video input. Recording could also be blocked by HDCP.

    So there is no shame for TiVo. Satellite is a closed market, and unless the FCC imposes CableCARD-like regulations on them (which they’ve considered but declined to impose) then DirecTV and Dish can lock out 3rd parties.

  • megazone

    I’ll be posting more info in a bit. :-)

  • anonymous

    The reason there is no satellite version is because the satellite companies want you to use their box. The Directv tivo only happened because Hughes struck a deal with tivo. Now they are owned by news corp who already had a dvr.

    DBS has 32 transponders (channels) in each location, you can’t put two satellites in the same location. I think they get between 32 and 40 Mbps per transponder. It leaves enough room for about 10 sd channels or barley enough for 3 HD.

    If cable dumps analog they will have so much more bandwidth, I believe they are able to get around 40Mps per 6Mhz channel. If DBS was analog they could only run 32 channels per orbital slot. Those analog stations on your cable with snow (usually 75-125 (minus 94-99) actually have digital signals on them. Each system is different and I am not as familiar with cable so I could have some of this wrong.

    Back to Tivo, the only reason tivo is able to make this unit is because the FCC requires that cable offer cable cards. There is no requirement for DBS to open their system up.

    -Jason

  • aizjanika

    Don’t people with cable do that, too? Take the path of least resistance? I have DirecTV, but chose not to get a DirecTivo because it didn’t have the features that I wanted. I didn’t know about the IFR controls. I did a lot of research, but didn’t understand that reference. Still, it works for me.

    I was thinking about getting two more Tivos for this house sometimes soon, but was going to wait for Series 3 and put my current Series 2 in another room. Hmm….

    The only way to support satellite would be with an external tuner, and you couldn’t do any better than the Series2 can today.

    Why wouldn’t it be better? What is so much better about the Series 3 then? We are thinking about getting an HD TV soon, too, which would also mean upgrading our satellite.

    I really like the new remote with the Series 3, too. The Tivo remote is a good one, but I’m glad to see they’ve eliminated that one direction button at the top and instead have individual controls there. Many times I’ve accidentally pushed that one big button in the wrong spot. It’s annoying.

    Oh well… This is disappointing.

  • aizjanika

    Our cable company here sucks, and I have no choice to use another–there’s only the one. I had them for only a few months when I first moved here and I still deal with them for internet service. They suck. Their service sucked. It was constantly going out, for one thing. I can deal with the internet going out intermittently, but not the TV. I missed so many of my favorite shows during the few months I had cable here, that it was more than just an inconvenience.

    Beyond that, they had no good place to call for help. The people in the office were far away and never even heard of my town and seemed not to know anything ever. (This is still the case.) The local salesman was a complete idiot.

    I’d never deal with that company again if I didn’t have to for internet.

  • megazone

    The reason it wouldn’t do better than the Series2 is that, at best, you would be recording the same SD signal – S-Video at best. You’re not going to be able to record HD from an external tuner. IR blasters and S-Video input is the best it will get without an integrated DVR. And as long as the cable providers are closed systems they can block third parties, like Tivo, from providing DVRs.

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